SADIQUE DISCUSSIONS BACK NUMBER5

[No:262][Jeanette]  [98/10/1  3:52:45]  

hi I am getting sugery, tonight 30th september. Hope to be back tomorrow. Take care.

[No:267][Laird Ruthven]  [98/10/4  13:15:24]  

Since no one appears to active on this board, 'tis a perfect opportunity for me to babble on about meaningless drivel...

Although I fancy myself something of an intellectual (perhaps a meaningless conceit, but nevertheless, my work has been published repeatedly for years), I find it rather difficult to accept my role as a hermit. I am a creature of violent passion, i.e. the legal record alluded to previously, and yet, I find the most solace digging around through scholarly tables, trying to solve historical delimmas-was Fl. Nigrinianus cos.350 actually an Anicii or not?-WHY IS THAT?

[Please do not read sexual deprivation into the following, as I can safely assure you 'tis not the case] Being a relatively good looking young man, of impeccable taste and culture, I can be, and frequently am, a most charming entity; and yet, I derive some insane pleasure from driving those who might deem it worth their time to get to get to become my friend away.

I suppose I have have a vehement fear of closeness, but I couple this with a psychopathic desire, nay, intimate passion, to hurt those willing to allow me to do so. Yes, is there not a greater desire, than to hurt, to see, taste, feel, the tears of those willing to place themselves at your mercy? Is there not, deep within us all, a desire to place ourselves over our peers through the medium of inflicting physical pain, but only appreciated when our victims delude themselves into pleassure and beg for more? To torture the unwilling gives no pleasure, but to see one's victim simply beg for more abuse...is that not the ultimate in masculine ectasy?

To see, to feel, to taste, to love another's physical agony, consented to by choice out of delusions such as love...herein lies true liberation from the constraints of morality, emotion, feelings. To divorce one's self from the rest of humaity, and boldly stand before our kind and dictate, nay, loudly proclaim, "I am myself, I will do as I see fit, I AM SOVEREIGN!" This is the essense of the truly free individual, i.e. the noble Marquis' vision of perfection as derived through "Juliette."

I am, perhaps, by conventional sociological standards, a pyschopath, and yet, sanity, like taste and beauty, are purely in the eyes of the beholder. Criminal conspirators who add to the reality of Orwellian hells, such as Freud, are the new aristocracy; conform---if you must deviate, you must deviate within the outer periameters of our framework. And yet, inspirational ideas jump from system approved media---Robert Duvall, THX-1138, shall we remove the bindings that enslave us and see the sun?

Of course, sadly, true freedom, individual empowerment, absolute liberty; have their price. A DCD quote, "In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed is king." To the truly free, and those like myself who recognize and seek true freedom, there is a most painful price to pay---lonliness. How can the blind appreciate the visions your one eye allows? How can you share your vision? Hence the one with sight has found aa world of beautiful nightmares and devilish dreams which he cannot share with his blind kindred. What else is art, but a desperate attempt to express vision to those who cannot see? The lyrics of Christina Rossetti's verse, the power of Chauncers prose, Michaelanglo's sculpture, de Vinci's originality; are they not all lonely voices of sight calling out to those of us who cannot see?

To quote von Zeigler, "The awake are always deprived of their dream company, and the asleep always see visions of unattainable potential."

I am, sadly, awake and alone. Abstraction is being eradictated by machinery ("Why think when a machine can do it for you?") and I dispair ever finding a companion; i.e. a superior woman who can share both my virtues and peversions.

[No:268][Matthew]  [98/10/6  8:42:27] [Comment Number-5] 

Laird, my boy...of course you are alone...we all are...the religious mystic seeks solace from his meditations, his trances, his repeated invocations of God. The existentialist (see Sarte) seeks refuge in his refusal to acquiesce to the tides of life; like Camus' Sissyphus he keeps rolling that rock up the hill. The devotee of DeSade finds momentary glory in the wondrous feelings of dominance coursing through his entire being at precisely the exquisite moment of dominance. Your desire for the woman who would share these pleasures with you is a common desire of those who find their ecstacy in socially unacceptable ways. I wish you luck (and that is what it will take) in your quest for this cohabitant of your dark dreams.

[No:269][Mladen]  [98/10/7  7:40:9]  

hello everyone, I did my thesis on Sade in Paris, and am now working on the translations of his work. anyone knows details about the translations of Sade in croat and/or serbian? Thanks.

[No:270][Raven]  [98/10/9  2:7:15] [Comment Number-5] [http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Bistro/9312]

Okay, perhaps this is just my feminist side rearing it's ugly head, (I say ugly because I have no use for women's libbers...personally I LIKE being treated like the lady that I am...Let my man open my door for me...It is a gesture I deeply appreciate) Anyway....to these comments that were made about never finding a woman to share your perversions....It seems to me Laird that you prefer this solace to having actual company...your litany proved that to me. You claim to want a superior woman who can share these perversions with you, yet by your own admission, if you found her you would just push her away, thus defeating yourself.
To go through life utterly alone is very painful so perhaps you yourself possess a bit of a mascochistic side, not purely the need to dominate others. As for thinking those who would submit themselves to your lusts and perversions are simply misguided fools, well with that attitude you will NEVER find your other half. When someone loves and trusts you enough to submit their entire all to you, body, heart, mind , and soul, then they are bestowing a wonderful gift to you and unless you plan to take it in the manner it was offered then leave it alone. I'm sorry...I guess perhaps it is my hormones running rampant or something at the moment, but I felt the need to have my opinion known. If it has upset you or anyone else then perhaps that is a good thing. I will not apologize for my statements. Perhaps you need to quit hiding behind those words and REALLY think about what you wrote...perhaps then you will see the paradox of your statements as clearly as I have. Anyway....I wish all of you a good afternoon.

Jeannette....I'm glad that my comments helped a little...I hope you are faring well after your surgery...take care......RAven

[No:275][Jeanette]  [98/10/17  15:25:0]  [http://www.fortunecity.com/boozers/otooles/528/mylinks.html]

still recovering from surgery, hope to be better in a week, will then be writing again, and maybe add a little genealogical history to my page.

[No:276][Laird Ruthven]  [98/10/18  14:31:39] [Comment Number-276] 

To begin with, I suppose I should explain the circumstances behind my last post, to put it simply, I was drunk and depressed; but most of what I wrote is acurate nevertheless. Anyway, I am not a person who usually confides my inner thoughts and feelings to anyone, much less the world via the Internet, and if I offended anyone, I apologize. Responses...

#268 by Matthew...I appreciate your kind words and see that, to one extent or another, you have an understanding of what I was saying below.

#269 by Mladen...Sorry, I am not aware of any de Sade translations in either Serbian or Croat. Interesting that you should ask when you did however, as a friend of mine in Jagodina (Yugoslavia/Serbia-Montenegro) recently asked the same question. I believe there are some translations into Russian, which will serve as a viable tool in translating his works into Serbian at least.

#270 by Raven...If I didn't know better, I would think that I pissed you off...:-). Anyway, I suspect that you reached a few mistaken conclusions regarding my earlier rant (yes, men rant too). None of my previous missive was sexual in nature, even when regarding "perversions." There is a decent fetish scene here in town, and although I am not a fanatic, I have a few regular partners in whom I play and allow them to play with me as well. Sex was not what I was talking about, more notions of sincere human intimacy, someone in whom to confide. You may have a point about my preferring lonliness to such company, as my actions would certainly appear to compliment your observation, and yet, I suspect such is not the case. As for the paradox within my last missive, I freely admit the truth of your observation in this respect...it is within this paradox that my confusion finds its home. Anyway, I apologize if I offended you in any way, and took no offense to the opinions you expressed in your missive. Believe me, I know I'm somewhat fucked up...but I'm not sure that's such a bad thing.

#275 by Jeanette...Have an interest in genealogical research, eh? 'Tis one of my hobbies as well, let me know if you decide to pursue such things seriously, as I may be able to help in one respect or another.
Anyway, I wish you a speedy recovery.

[No:277][Laird Ruthven]  [98/10/18  15:7:55]  

By the way, Raven, geocities appears to be ignoring your site. Just tried to link to it through your entry on the "List" here on this site and it wouldn't let me in.

[No:278][Raven]  [98/10/19  14:38:8]  

BTW Laird.....I dont recall talking about matters of sex....I was speaking of matters of the heart, spirit and soul...although sex can play a part in that also....anyway no offense taken and thanks for the info about my site....RAven

[No:279][Matthew]  [98/10/20  7:37:57] [Comment Number-6] 

Glad to see Laird is moving out of his funk....we all suffer some type of depression at one time or another...alcohol often aids in this respect but as Laird describes it, old John Barleycorn may have been the catalyst for some moving thoughts, an actual outpouring from the soul (if we have one) or the subconscious if you prefer...hope Jeanette recovers well and is her usual loquacious self...her poems are interesting (especially submission which seems to emanate right from the soul)...and she shouldn't sell her picture short (see WANF), I'm sure more than a few surfers have been just a wee bit titillated...the need for excitement would be understood by our friend the Marquis whose entire work may be seen as a seeking for more and more delicious ways to please himself...if you're going to worship something, eros can be quite a bit...fun!

[No:280][Jeanette]  [98/10/20  8:6:14]  [http://www.fortunecity.com/boozers/otooles/528/mylinks.html]

Awww...I feel special. Thanks guys. Well, eventually I shall get some better pictures on there, maybe even some baby ones so u all can giggle. My erotic adventures for the time are on hold. My pussy still hurts from surgery, should I have sex so soon, I shall end up in the hospital. My boyfriend/whatever haven't spoken much to him on phone or online. But somewhere in my head I knew we were both playing a game, he getting the married chic, and me wanting to see how thrilling an affair would be. I think a affair could be much more exciting, but even with the intelligence (he chooses not to share with me), I am a bit bored and not getting enough of the attention I set out to obtain.

re: genealogy,
I would say it is a bit more of a hobby. Possibly, in the future, it will end up being a career. One of my many goals "own my own business, and be sucessful at it". Just a little too busy right now. One of my lines has been traced back to 80A.D. I have relations to all sorts of ppl, including Henry I, William the Conqueror. One of my grandfathers was the first governor of Tennessee (also Brig. General and fought during the American Revolution/Indian Fighter). Another line, is of Cherokee decent, from which I proved and traced lineage and am a member of the Cherokee Nation. Eligible to vote, etc. I tend to get carried away with my genealogy. About like I do with Theatre. I love both, in a huge way. Some I bore with my ramblings, others are intrigued.

Besided recovering, in the near future, I may help someone with some lyrics so they can record. Maybe I can atleast talk them into letting me sing backup, prefer lead but doubt it, since they are doing solo stuff right now.

Still haven't heard if that magazine wants to print any of my first 4 poems. Should I find someone that truly likes my nontraditional writing and should I get enough for a small book...did i tell this yet? I was thinking of having the cover a nude painting of myself. White flesh on a dark futon, dark large room, wood floor, with a portrait of Velazquez sort of appreciating the art. While I hold a book of Kahlil gibran's. Everything sorta symbolizing something. And maybe my book cover will entice the male who wouldn't be caught dead buying a book of poetry to pick it up. There I go again, rambling. Well, Sunday, I hope my car is running so I can get dressed in my lovely and only gown, to view "Belagio" the new and finest Casino. Which has a few Coutoure stores and a collection of fine paintings, which include Picasso. Off I go, on my adventure and quest for inspiration, happiness, loves and passion. Take care.

[No:281][Jeanette]  [98/10/22  9:52:3]  [http://www.fortunecity.com/boozers/otooles/528/mylinks.html]

Well, have 3 new poems on my page. If you're interested in the dark past of my complex life, or how my virtue was taken from me...read "Circle of Destiny". It was a lot easier on my head to write in poetry than book form. Yet, I tried to capture a little of the past. Anyways... Where is everyone? Hope you all are doing o.k.

[No:282][Jeanette]  [98/10/23  18:4:27]  [http://www.fortunecity.com/boozers/otooles/528/mylinks.html]

BACK TO SEX

Has anyone applied Karezza and Kama Sutra into one session an was the outcome good?

[No:283][Jeanette]  [98/10/24  16:37:48]  

Laird, hotmail actin up, did u get my reply?

[No:287][Lamron]  [98/10/31  12:0:20]  

Hi all, it's good to find a page devoted to the Marquis, and having done so I would like to ask a question of you. I have to admit that I have not yet read much of Sade because I only recently started, so excuse my ignorance if this is a trivial question.

What I would like to know is how far exactly the philosophy of Sade goes in avoiding virtue. In other words, although the characters decry virtue endlessly and embrace vice entirely, does this mean that they cannot or will not act virtuously ever? And what about, for instance, the libertines who have friendships with other libertines, such as when Noirceuil takes Juliette into his home? Would this friendship and mutual respect be considered a virtue? Or is it not a virtue due to the fact that the libertine is still doing it in his pursuit of personal pleasure? Would a libertine perform public displays of virtue in order to avoid social punishment? Thoughts, anyone?

[No:291][Matthew]  [98/11/4  16:2:40] [Comment Number-7] 

Jeannette...visited your site...Circle of Destiny is a wondrous poem: you show the courage of a true libertine in opening up your psyche for us all to see. I would encourage you to be bolder...even more graphic...this is not a criticism but simply a wish for you to exploit your talent even more...you really are a lovely creature...your poems a delight, your commentary superb...carry on, love

[No:295][Jeanette]  [98/11/5  5:11:3]  [http://www.fortunecity.com/boozers/otooles/528]

My past site links got messed up, so here is the correct one.

Laird-I haven't forgotten you. Just had a few too many things going on. Takes forever to type that out.

Matthew- Thankyou. I will keep that in mind. I am glad you enjoy my work. That poem is one, that is too real. I hate writing about misery.

I wrote a couple new ones: Enough and Embrasse Moi (it needs work on the French though).

[No:296][Jeanette]  [98/11/5  13:8:32]  [http://www.fortunecity.com/boozers/otooles/528]

Not sure what is wrong with my browser today, but it doesn't appear my message took.

Laird-I haven't forgotten to send that stuff, just been preoccupied.

Also, I have a new poem, as of today, on my page. Should you care to read it, click on my url and scroll down to "Cupiditas atis".

Take care all.

[No:297][Raven]  [98/11/9  4:33:54]  

Hello everyone!!! Gods it seems like forever since I have last ventured here!!!! Things have been quite hectic here as of late. I have been working hard to clear up some unfinished work so that I can begin my maternity leave!!!!! The baby has decided to drop which causes no small amount of discomfort but it is all worth it in the end I suppose!!! He is quite large also...3 weeks ahead of schedule. I hope that everyone is doing fine. There really doesnt seem to be that much activity here anymore...I hope everything is good. Til another time

[No:298][Reid Joseph Luzzader]  [98/11/10  14:12:41] [Comment Number-298] 

This is my first time writing. I would like to hear anyone's thoughts on why the Marquis did not execute his enemies when he had the chance to as a judge during the Revolution. In other words, how could someone so infamous for his violent philosophy be anti-death penalty? (I believe he explicitly stated his position on this in one of his political pamphlets, but I may be wrong.) Thanx.

[No:299][Reid Joseph Luzzader]  [98/11/10  14:36:47] [Comment Number-2] 

This is a response to Lamron's question. A quote from the 120 Days may be enlightening: "not only did he never so much as dream of a single virtue, he beheld them all with horror, and he was frequently heard to say that to be truly happy in this world a man ought not merely fling himself into every vice, but should never permit himself one virtue, and that it was not simply a matter of doing evil, but also and above all of never doing good."
I believe this would apply to all Sadean heroes.
As for the idea that the friendship between the heroes may be considered a virtue, it is explicity stated again and again (especially in Juliette and in relation to the Society of the Friends of Crime) that the friendship between the libertines is one of pure selfishness, a vice. In fact, when any of the Society members wavered for even a moment in their commitment to vice, they are killed by their "friends", except, of course, someone like Juliette,who is in training.
A Sadean hero may definately pretend to be publicly virtuous. They would revel in the irony and the deceit. Many of the libertines are trusted public figures.
However, as for the comradary between the libertines, you do raise an interesting question. Despite the fact that it is selfish, does it contradict Sade's idea of the pure, unfettered, isolated, and lonely ego?

[No:300][Jeanette]  [98/11/11  7:51:6]  [http://www.fortunecity.com/boozers/otooles/528/nudes.html]

Well, I have nothing intelligent to say. Just thought I would post the link to my Nude pics page. I forwarn you, I stay out of the sun, and could glow in the dark with my pale skin. It is just me, no whips no chains, just me in my office, goofing around in front of a cheap camera.

It has come to me that, I should write something more, something that does not limit. So, I think before I do anymore updating on my main page, I will do a little Justine style tragedy. Just an online Jeanette Documentary. The true way one loses virtue, the many tragedies one can endure. It will be long, unorganized, and unproofed. So, do not critic me on my imperfect grammar and composition. I will just be writing. Stay tuned.

[No:301][Jeanette]  [98/11/11  7:55:43]  [http://www.fortunecity.com/boozers/otooles/528/jeanette.html]

I will update the tragedy as I have time. so bookmark it. I promise you have never read anything more true in your life.

[No:302][Matthew]  [98/11/12  8:4:8] [Comment Number-8] 

I see the issues of DeSade's opposition to the death penalty and the question of friendship between libertines has arisen once again. My observations follow: DeSade was probably opposed to the death penalty because he knew that sooner or later (given the quixotic nature of French society) it would be imposed upon him; as to the second question, there is nothing wrong (from a sadist's point of view) with kinship between libertines--after all, one can help the other ascend to new levels of selfishness...when the person ceased to help DeSade in his adventures (as in the famous revulsion to starviing two thirds of France to death) then he/she can be discarded or used for personal pleasure. His consistency is marvelous!

[No:303][Herv�]  [98/11/14  5:40:52]  

This is a very serious message for all people like the Marquis de Sade.I'm living just five minutes of one of the best place where the Marquis lived.It's a very beautiful "chateau" in Provence.The problem is that "chateau" is now on sale because the district administration,still owner of the house,needs money.We don't want that place become a private one.We need help to buy the chateau and open it to all the people in the world like to visit where the Marquis lived.
We sponsors,associations,incorporatives....
Thank you very much!!!
Herv�

[No:304][Reid Luzzader]  [98/11/14  6:54:41] [Comment Number-3] 

Thank you for responding to my question, Matthew. I'm sorry if this is redudant for you.

I think we have to be careful to seperate the philosophy that Sade presents in his novels (especially the black novels) and his real life philosophy, political or otherwise. Sade was no more a Sadean hero than Nietschze was a Superman. In truth, there is a distinction, and it may very well disrupt what we think of as his consistenty. But to do less would be to degrade the thought of this powerful and complex personality.

I think Sade indeed had humanist tendencies. Sade, despite his extremity, was very much a part of the enlightenment tradition of his time, which was very humanist. We know, for example, that Sade had great admiration for Voltaire and kept a complete edition of his works in his home. The other enlightenment figure that probaly affected Sade the most was Baron D'Holbrach. I may be wrong, but despite the atheistic, deterministic, and materialistic emphasis of D'Holbrach's philosphy, I would be surprised if it was intended or interpreted as anti-antihumanist.

Sade, perhaps more than anyone in history, fully appreciated the raw and amoral power that lies behind all ideologies, and I think that perhaps for that very reason he understood the full horror of taking of a human life in the name of any ideology.

Thank you for letter, Cyndi.

[No:305][Jeanette]  [98/11/14  10:23:34]  [http://www.fortunecity.com/boozers/otooles/528]

I have added another poem, and a new page, going into advanced techniques. All is more bliss in the love life. Although, it is difficult to keep 2 ppl happy. I think I will keep my dessert and devour him for breakfast, lunch and dinner someday. He's not the least bit repressed in bed or in fantasy. I finally found a match to light. Take care all.

[No:306][Thibault Lesueur]  [98/11/27  3:6:49]  

C'est la premi鑽e fois que je vois cette page sur le Marquis de Sade, je n'ai pas de connexion � l'internet, donc je n'ai pas l'habitude de "surfer" comme vous, peut-黎re. J'esp鑽e avoir une connexion bient, quand m麥e, pour pouvoir communiquer avec vous, s'il y a quelqu'un qui sait parler fran軋is! Un conseil, avant de partir, si vous aimez Sade, il faut lire Georges Bataille! A bient, Thibault

[No:315][Eddie]  [99/1/6  7:11:22] [Comment Number-315] 

Not so much a comment as an assertion really. I'm writing about the DeSade at the moment; a defense that he himself was never permitted to make. But anyway; if I assert the following: "That true freedom in the state, is dependent on freedom of the individual; which freedom permits as would nature, sexual freedom. For the desire and gratification of that need is the purest expression of 'self'...." What reaction would I get?

[No:316][Anicius]  [99/1/17  13:5:25]  

Eddie...Just thought I would comment on your "assertion"/summery of De Sade's general philosophy given in your # 315.... Personally, I am inclined to agree with the idea you presented here and think that most who are familiar with the man's works would do so as well. However, for those who refuse to afford De Sade any compliment, there does exist the rebuttal that by reducing man to his primal instincts, he loses the individuality which allows people to have a "self". In this line of reasoning, though such creatures may have different tastes, by acting upon instinctual impulses with little or no regard to the effect such behavior has on others, one sacrifices those higher ideals that seperate man from beast.

I, however, completely disagree with this pretense because it works from the general assumption that man is outside of, or above, nature. The whole notion of "self" is fundementally convoluted perception created by ourselves for ourselves, and strongly coloured by our personal instinctual urges and tastes. If one refuses to divorce humanity from nature, then the act of fulfilling an instinctual urge truly becomes "the purest expression of 'self'", as you suggest.

Ultimately, the question boils down to whether one feels that we, as human beings, are seperate and distinct beings from nature in general, or just another part of the Earth's biological community. Are we, in essense, creatures of divine nature or simply advanced creatures? If you hold the former beliefs then De Sade was a true monstrosity, it you hold the latter, then De Sade was the ultimate individualist.

[No:317][Kathleen]  [99/1/27  3:3:9] [Comment Number-1] 

i'am seeking writings by dennys or dennis cooper....supposedly a follower of the teachings of the Marquis......if you can direct me at all it would be much appreciated.

thank you